John over at Homo economicus’ Weblog tagged me to answer this series of questions regarding the big fella upstairs (who, in case you haven’t already realised, I don’t believe in).
Can You Remember The Day That You Officially Became An Atheist?
To be honest, the more I think about it, the more I realise I’ve never really been anything but an atheist. That might seem like a strange thing to say but let me break it down for you, and then see if it doesn’t sound a little less strange.
- I was born an atheist. I had no knowledge of God until those around me told me about him. I had no childhood visionary experience, no bearded face staring down at me through the clouds, nothing — merely the cultural influences of religion which are addressed in point two.
- My parents were/are not overtly religious. As it turned out, I was later to find that I come from a line of atheists on my father’s side — but nevertheless, in childhood I was touched by that wishy-washy, half-hearted Church of England tradition that many of us are possibly familiar with. I can’t remember anyone in my family attending church other than for christenings, funerals and the occasional wedding. I sang hymns at school and listened to the occasional passage being read from the New Testament — and on one occasion, I even played Joseph in the school nativity play. But did I actually believe any of it? That’s a tough one, but I’m not really convinced that I did — certainly not in the way that I would have believed as an adult. I accepted what I was told, but as soon as I learned that Father Christmas didn’t really exist my doubts in other areas — as ill-formed as they might have been — came to the fore. Granted, I was not an intellectual atheist in the way that I am today, but I’ve never really been guilty of having faith of this kind.
Do you remember the day you officially became an agnostic?
Technically, I’m agnostic. I’m a six on the Dawkins atheist scale, which means I believe the existence of God to have a very low probability — low enough to be an unrealistic proposition, but still short of zero. Dawkins would describe me as a de facto atheist, and I’d agree with that, but some will nevertheless insist that my position is that of an agnostic.
To answer your question, however, I have to say that I never became and have never considered myself an agnostic. At this time, I have absolutely no belief in any kind of god — but maybe someone will provide new evidence tomorrow (I don’t think so, but…) I work with what I know. Working with what I know I see no need of a god. Mine is not a noncommittal position or one of asserting that such things cannot be proved or disproved either way.
How about the last time you spoke or prayed to God with actual thought that someone was listening?
I don’t remember ever really feeling as if there were someone else on the other end of the line. I prayed because those around me — in school assembly, for example — were praying. All those people can’t be wrong, right? Wrong!
Did anger towards God or religion help cause you to be an atheist or agnostic?
Absolutely not. Apart from the logical impossibility of being angry at something I’ve never actually believed in, I see too much understandable beauty around me to be angry about life and how it works. I see mysteries and experience wonder just about everywhere I look — but these mysteries are not unknowable, they are not beyond explanation. For me, understanding is more thrilling than anything else I know (well, almost… 😉 )
Religion, frankly, at times disgusts me now — but that’s because I understand its lies, and that disgust played no part in making me what I am.
Here is a good one: Were you agnostic towards ghosts, even after you became an atheist?
All aspects of the so-called “paranormal” interested me for a while, but largely from the perspective of wanting to understand. I prefer to use the word sceptic in this situation. I look at “evidence” and try to understand it, without automatically jumping to the conclusions that others do. For the record, I don’t believe in ghosts.
Do you want to be wrong?
Hell no! LOL. No, seriously, if we’re talking about whether I would like the Abrahamic god to exist, then I’d have to paraphrase Christopher Hitchens; if you prove to me he exists then your work has just begun. I do not want to know this kind of god. Hitchens compares this tradition (and others) to a dictatorship. He wants no part of it and neither do I.
If, on the other hand, there did turn out to be an afterlife that was much like this life but better then, yes, I’d be happy to be wrong.
I don’t think I am, though!
So to spread these ideas around, and keep the meme alive, I better tag some people:
Mike.
My opinions are very similar to yours, and you’ve stated the “rational atheist” position much more clearly than I ever could have. Well done, Gary!
Done!
Gary:
You reference Hitchens, so it makes me think you’re a fan of his material (on religion, I find him fantastic; on everything else, it’s a mixed bag)… If you haven’t check out this lecture of his on youtube:
Moral Necessity of Atheism
This will be fun! I’ll do it over the weekend. 🙂
I’ve been in a life long battle with this subject. I’m still in limbo. I don’t think a book written by man is something I can believe in, but other things that have happened in life still have me hanging on to a belief in a greater something.
But the ghost thing, I never wanted to believe. I have a fear of the unknown. LOL! But after moving in to my old homestead. It is a subject I can no longer avoid or pretend something is up. Spend a week or so at my house, you just might change your mind. 🙂
Take Care.
I meant: something is not up here. I get ahead of myself sorry.
Only 5% of people in the US admit to being atheists. It’s not easy to talk about, and much as I love these kind of point by point arguments, (Dawkins, Dennet et al) I don’t think they convince anyone outside that 5%. Those who believe in a particular conception of God have “faith” that defies rationalism, for better or for worse. They just feel that there is a God, it’s hard to argue with how somebody “feels.”
Sometimes I like to argue that I believe in ALL religions whether Christian, Hindu, Ancient Greek, Euro-Pagan, Buddhist, or even the pantheon in the Sandman comic books. I figure in-so-far that one is true, they ALL must be true, as contradictory and absurd as that sounds.
Call it an Omnitheist.
That usually threatens people a lot less than telling them I’m a scientific atheist, and they are less likely to find me arrogant, condescending, or annoying.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Good post Gary!
– Sean
genrehacks.blogspot.com
Carrie: Such subjects can often be difficult to express clearly. Thanks for letting me know I succeeded!
Hayley: Excellent! I’ll pop along and read it in a sec.
leapsecond: It seems our views on Hitchens coincide. I admire his work on religion — especially his debates — but, yes, on everything else I quite often find myself disagreeing with him. Which isn’t a bad thing. At least he makes me think and question.
I haven’t actually seen that particular lecture, so thanks for bringing it to my attention. I look forward to watching it in full!
Lottie: It was very enjoyable — you’ll have a great time with it, I’m sure 😉
thebeadden: I can understand your “battle”. I have always had a sense of wonder which could have easily manifested itself as a belief in “a greater something”. It’s difficult, at times, to look at the beauty and complexity of nature, for example, without attributing it to something beyond our realm of knowledge. For me, however, that wonder merely drove me to try to understand the mechanisms behind nature etc — natural selection and so forth. Discovering such facts underpinned my lack of belief — but it also underpinned my sense of wonder. It didn’t destroy it, as some people erroneously believe it does.
LOL. I said I don’t believe in ghosts, but that doesn’t mean I’m not afraid of them! 😀 Seriously, I don’t believe in ghosts — but I do believe that there are some extremely strange phenomena out there (or in your case, in there!) that we haven’t yet explained. It is still a fascinating subject… and, yes, the horror film-loving eleven-year-old in me still gets goosebumps when he starts thinking about haunted houses etc.
You take care and good luck with the battle!
Sean: That 5% figure has bothered me for a while. As you point out, these are the people who “admit” to being atheists — which makes me feel that the actual percentage is rather higher. And it is for this very reason that I tend to think that Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett et al do actually have quite an important role to play. I’ve never really seen what they do as proselytising; I think their real work is to give closet atheists the courage and confidence to come out and speak up — to generally say enough is enough (sorry, I’m getting a little karaoke now!) For me, the experience of Hitchens (and Eddie Izzard, on a recent tour during which he talks about his atheism) in the Bible Belt pretty much sums it up; atheists were turning up believing that they’d be “the only atheist in the village”, only to find quite the opposite!
Yes, if I believed in one religion I’d also have to believe in them all. If I admit one aspect of the supernatural it seems only logical to me that I have to admit all aspects. I think I’ll just stick with being arrogant, condescending and annoying, though! 😉 I’m far better at that LOL.
Glad you enjoyed it, mate.
Hi Gary:
I get Google alerts on Atheism and I just dropped in to say that you seem to have had the same experience growing up as I did. No pushy parents and church
attendance for marriages and funerals.
I have to laugh when I hear theists claim that there is no morality with out “the BIG MAN”. I’m 74 years old. a devout atheist and have never been in jail, I have never tripped old people with canes, in fact I was a cop for 30 years in good standing. I believe that a GOOD cop does more for humanity than any religion could because they actually help people. Some are helped into jail and others are helped because they are safe from the people who are placed in jail. Unfortunately these people usually don’t learn from their jail time. I saw a survey once that stated more religious people go to jail than atheists. I actually believe this could be true.
Anyway I enjoyed your site, keep at ‘er
we have to win this one.
Aspentroll: Yes, I’m familiar with that survey and I have no reason to disbelieve it. If memory serves me well, Dawkins cites it.
And I agree wholeheartedly that where morality is concerned — where everything is concerned, in fact! — there is simply no need of religion. There are perfectly good reasons to be moral, reasons that, for me, boil down to one simple phrase: “you scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.” Cooperation, in other words. The majority of us do the right thing because it is in our own self-interest, and the interest of those we love, to so do. By and large we all know that we work better when we work together. It’s that principle that holds communities, cultures and countries together, not a list of commandments.
Thank you for your comment — I really appreciate your taking the time. Keep dropping by and feel free to comment whenever you wish.
All the best.
I believe in god but disbelieve what most people regard as god — does that make me an atheist, too, you think?
or … evilish primate 😈
I would never presume to say what that makes you, Baba, mate 😆
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Hey, Gary! I have a splitting headache. I’ll try to get to this tomorrow. Sorry for the delay.
No rush, Lottie. I hope you feel better soon! xx
Thanks, Gary. I’m a little better today, but I’m on my way out now. I’ll check in later. 🙂
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